Ode to main branch, you will be sorely missed.

#1
Regarding this: https://www.cryengine.com/news/cryengin ... -on-hiatus
TL;DR:
- Main branch will be removed, good luck maintaining local CE tweaks/changes
- PR's will be reviewed for the first time in ~1 year (aside from the great work of Cry-Claudio). Not accepted, but reviewed.
- Further PR's will not be accepted outside of a very small period after each release (so once a year)
- Most issues will be ignored as per usual, more so now since you can't PR in a solution or even view 'new' code.

As the near-sole PR submitter in CE (nearly 40, so far) I think I have a decent (if not the only community xd) voice in this matter.
Along with hundreds of hours invested keeping up with main branch and tweaking/improving my own stuff. (Time PR/etc.)
And not counting stuff I PR'd in but got fixed 2-3 months later (ignoring my PR)

Most of my complaints involved the lifecycle of PR's:
1) PR branch repeatedly out of date with Main [FIXED, several times :) ]
2) Github missing stuff that is present in Perforce [FIXED]
3) No management or sharing of Main branch SDK's/building information. e.g. can't build main branch cuz wrong SDKs.
Could have been resolved by simply updating SDK zips (As I do on my CE_SDKs branch)
4) Not even cursory examinations for PR's by anyone (with 1 exception)
The statement "When engineers have free time" sounds nice but means nothing when months go by.
Such as basic syntax fixes here: https://github.com/CRYTEK/CRYENGINE/pull/549

I do not see how maintaining a bug-free main branch is a bad idea.
Personally I'd expect main branch to at least build. It consistently builds now (after Git/P4 sync fix), so what's the issue with keeping it around?

Everyone (I hope) knows that main branch is not the 'ideal' version, it had bugs and crashes and what not.
I'm doing your engineers work for you, by working on the most recent branch and submitting fixes.
Tracing heap/stack corruption, making sure sandbox/launcher work in both regular and debug mode, and so on.
(At least, most of my PR's are fixes.)

And yet, when it comes to reviewing those fixes, there's a lack of manpower?
I just saved you time, and I certainly spent more triaging and resolving the issue than anyone spent reading my PR commit.

I have been bothering ya'll since at least last October. Responses did not and do not differ much from what is written in the article above, namely staff constraints/differing priorities. A mere 12 PR's in 10 months were merged in, all of them thanks to one Junior Animation Engineer. SDK's have not become available, but with much help in the discord I've been able to build them :)

This knee-jerk reaction is most certainly not what I was going for with my pings regarding the PR system, the PR branch, and so on.
Without main branch I can't maintain custom CE versions at a decent rate.
Without main branch the community can't test upcoming features and find bugs (for you) before you fix/hit them yourself.
Without main branch, bug fixes/features from the community will never become a part of the development cycle.

Since the branch will now be unavailable until (at least) CE 5.7, and 5.6 is in late summer.
That means for at least 1-2 years you will not be accepting PR's.

I have only requested that community feedback and PR's be taken into consideration and prioritized accordingly.
Not 'Never'. Not 'Sometime in 2 years'.
To maintain status quo, you only need main branch to be build-able (SDK's/etc)
I am quite sure that, internally, you frown upon any commits that cause the engine or editor to.....not build.....
Since the sync from P4<=>Git was fixed, shouldn't have to do anything on top to maintain main branch.

You are not taking feedback into account, I've never said a 'bugged' main branch is 'undesirable'.
You are not only postponing improvements, you're crippling any chance for the community to contribute.
You only needed to share main branch SDK's and devote SOME time to PR's. Instead you throw in the towl.

This is intentional disregard of everything I (and scant few others) ever worked on for CE.
Yes, I did volunteer work. I don't "Have" to do any of this, but I thought to help the community.
Yes, it requires effort on CryTek's part to acknowledge and process my work. A paltry effort in light of the work I put in.
Yes, my code is not perfect and I should have been more gentle in wording/less-spammy.

That said, I am gravely disappointed. I thought there was progress, the PR system was growing and input was accepted.
I thought wrong........

PS:
Many thanks to Cry-Claudio for assisting in PR's, going above and beyond in fixing this system and letting me work with main branch.
Additional thanks to Cry-Thomas for welcome advice and more SDK build questions (helped again this weekend!)
Without you, I would have quit CE in the first month like all the other's I've seen come and go.

Re: Ode to main branch, you will be sorely missed.

#2
Most of us seen this coming a long time and plus it was over due. There team lacks the man power and the knowledge to keep developing there engine needing to the be profitable. There is a reason Hunt Showdown is what it is and its only marketable product. Closed source lets them have more opportunities to sell there product to others aka google and other projects they are working on.

I don't see why it can't go back to being free instead of the royalty stuff.

Much like personwithat2 ive put a lot of time and effort into the engine to make it run a lot better.

Whats going to happen with some of us that use cry engine as a game product.
Are you guys worried about what lumberyard has done in taking your game engine and making money off it

Re: Ode to main branch, you will be sorely missed.

#3
Closed source lets them have more opportunities to sell there product to others aka google and other projects they are working on.
Clarification: CRYENGINE is not close source, you can still get the course code for 5.5.2 - which is the latest engine release - on Github. This was clearly stated in the communication, so please review it more carefully before jumping to conclusions.

I don't see why it can't go back to being free instead of the royalty stuff.


Because people who do good work want to be rewarded and we like to pay our developers. ;)

Whats going to happen with some of us that use cry engine as a game product.
I don't understand the question. Nothing is going to happen. You still have 5.5.2 which is production ready. Neither our business model, nor our rules regarding any of this changed and you still have access to full source. Using source code in a monetized product is subject to royalties, so you need to get in touch with us and register your game, anyways if that's the plan. So if you have done that, you know how to contact us if you are having further questions or demands for your development.
We're happy to assist as soon as we received a request.
Nic
CRYENGINE Community Developer

I'm manning the CRYENGINE stations on Facebook & Twitter as well, so come and say hi!
My personal Twittering may contain nuts.

Get to know me.

Re: Ode to main branch, you will be sorely missed.

#4
I just want to clarify a few things, as it seems that Personwithhat's call of Ragnarok might muddy the waters on what is really happening.

First, development on main is not stopping, simply those updates will not be synced with Github for the near future. As far as I understand it (Nic correct me if I'm wrong) we're planning to bring them back fairly soon. All public stable releases of the engine still have full source available through github.

Secondly, I would really like not to be characterized as this saviour that despite the whole company not collaborating is pushing community requests through. I simply tried to get some stuff in the engine that seemed easy enough to push through to the relevant teams. I absolutely support the company's decisions, and am not trying to work against it. Please avoid using my contributions rhetorically to make your point. I also don't really see the point of commenting on my experience rank as rank is just a word and this company works fairly horizontally.

Thirdly, I would like to comment on something in particular: Personwithhat, you seem to be thinking you're "doing our work for us", but you have to realize that while your modifications of the engine are tailored to your needs, anything we accept needs to be thoroughly reviewed as we take the responsibility of pushing any of these features to every one of our customers; you don't have to take that responsibility. We are simply not going to take foreign code in without reviewing it. While contributions are appreciated, characterizing it as "working for us" or "doing our job for us" is something absolutely incorrect, and it's really disrespectful to anybody working here (including me).

To conclude, I really personally hope we can manage to get the pull request branch up asap, but that is fairly out of my concern area and there are people working on it and making sure we make the correct decisions. I trust those people. Please trust them too.

Kind regards,

Claudio.
Animation Engineer @ CRYENGINE

Re: Ode to main branch, you will be sorely missed.

#5
First of all, never mentioned that other source branches will be missing. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

The official notice says main will not be available until 5.7, at least a year is not 'soon'.
"and that’s what we’re going to do in the interim until CRYENGINE 5.7 is released"
So until that's done, no PR's and no main branch.

Comment on rank is fair regarding your experience with the sections of code, I certainly didn't submit only animation-related PR's so your work in getting it pushed through to others in the company was good. I simply complimented the people that I saw giving me help and improving the system. If I am missing any then they didn't work transparently or it slipped my mind, if it's the latter I apologize :<

Maybe I'm coming off as too aggressive. What I mean in a nutshell here:
1) I have lots of PR's that have not been touched since December/etc., that's a long time and means a poor PR system.
2) Cry-Claudio has helped me a lot in clearing up the PR's, and Cry-Thomas too!
3) Main branch should not be removed, that prevents all community input to the engine.
Or at least returned in a month or so(?), just so I don't get too far behind what you guys have. That kills weekends for me xd

The majority of my modifications are not feature improvements, but rather bug fixes and stuff to let me actually launch sandbox/game in debug mode without crashing 2 seconds in. I have had more than one occurrence where I fix a bug, PR it in, get it ignored, and then 1-2 months later someone submits a fairly similar commit to fix the same bug. If they'd read my PR perhaps the issue would have been caught earlier.

An engineers job is to add features and fix bugs. I mostly fixed bugs, hence I did an engineers job, hence I saved you time.
I did not mean that you did nothing/I'm doing it instead of you. More like "You have bugs, I fix, I save you time" kind of deal. Hopefully that clears it up.

Finally, yes, reviewing foreign code takes time. But debugging, tracing, and triaging issues takes more time. Hence I save you time with my non-feature PR's, of which there are many. And I also take responsibility to make sure my fixes work and launch, with consistent maintenance and improvements. I also test them all at once and maintain them in my main-branch, with additional samples in new-standard/etc. Admittedly not everyone will be doing this, but since I'm the near-sole source of PR's in the past 10 months I'd say it's good enough for now.

I understand this PR system is not a 1-man or 2-man process, but that's all the community sees.
No other engineers have touched PR's (publicly merged/etc.), and issues also have not been cleaned out in a long time.
Isn't it fair to say that, to the view of the average community member, submitting a PR or an issue is pointless?
When you have timestamps from December/October of last year you kind of lose motivation to contribute.
I (and I hope you) have seen others mention this in discord/etc. :\

Re: Ode to main branch, you will be sorely missed.

#7
I don't really starkly disagree with your point, just the fact that you're framing this as some apocalypse-like event.

Simply, the pull request workflow is not working for us at the moment (as you are starkly aware of). The responsible people have decided to pause it for the time to re-evaluate how we do it.

Obviously, it's not the best outcome for you particularly, as you enjoy modifying the engine and submitting pull requests. However, the pull request branch will be back. And if you find something that you want to signal you can still open an issue.

I just don't think there's any point in aggravating the situation as you're doing, as this really isn't helping anybody.
Animation Engineer @ CRYENGINE

Re: Ode to main branch, you will be sorely missed.

#8
Moderation note:
This topic is now locked as we don't feel there's anything to add this discussion at this point. There were some wrong assumptions in the starting post, which we addressed and feedback has been considered, but everything from here on out would be arguing for argument's sake.

If you have concerns about how we distribute CRYENGINE on GitHub, please make sure you read the original post with all relevant information here, and if you are having concerns or questions, let us know in the relevant thread.
Thanks!
Nic
CRYENGINE Community Developer

I'm manning the CRYENGINE stations on Facebook & Twitter as well, so come and say hi!
My personal Twittering may contain nuts.

Get to know me.

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