My personal concerns regarding the new EULA

#1
Tonight, I took the time to slowly go through the new EULA (as per the stablization branch) and seriously evaluate it.
From a legal drafting standpoint I can understand the lack of the oxford comma being used. But unclear punctuation in general made it a painful read. (http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/ori ... 27/5a4.jpg)

Spoiler!  Show

I've always considered the EULA a bit of a mess. But with royalties tacked on, it's even worse now as there are additional implications beyond the "oops you can't do the Cryengine anymore" style revocation. Overall, I get the intent behind the EULA but these fine unresolved details frighten me. I understand the accounting that goes on, but the open-endedness in certain spots can most definitely be exploited. In light of Crytek v. CIG, I can't assume the best here. I've already dropped more than a thousand dollars so far towards my game's development and was looking to go another 900 some tomorrow. I guess that's on hold until I at least get an explanation on how to transfer rights to development work to assuage liabilities.

Re: My personal concerns regarding the new EULA

#3
Hey Zeph, short update.

Can you clarify the following statements in a bit more detail so we can work towards clarifying your concerns?
But with royalties tacked on, it's even worse now as there are additional implications beyond the "oops you can't do the Cryengine anymore" style revocation.
Which ones?
Overall, I get the intent behind the EULA but these fine unresolved details frighten me. I understand the accounting that goes on, but the open-endedness in certain spots can most definitely be exploited.
Can you clarify this statement? Can you pin down the points that are bothering you for us?
I guess that's on hold until I at least get an explanation on how to transfer rights to development work to assuage liabilities.
What does that mean? Where exactly is the conflict with our license agreement?

I can't promise anything at this stage but our legal department is looking into the license agreement based on your and many other users' feedback. I just want to make sure we can present them with detailed points so we are working towards the same goal.
Typos are going to be corrected in the next update. :)

Cheers,
Nic
CRYENGINE Community Developer

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Re: My personal concerns regarding the new EULA

#4
Which ones?
Well, in the past the EULA pretty much just said if you don't follow this agreement then you can't use Cryengine any longer. Now, it's saying you agree that we can charge you an as of yet to be determined amount of money in certain circumstances and through vague/missing definitions be interpreted arbitrarily at any point in time (in addition to you no longer being able to use Cryengine). Where before there was only a grant of license for use, protocols are trying to be dictated here and that opens up whole new dimensions in the realm of breach of contract. I know you guys can't say anything about ongoing litigation, but the Crytek vs CIG FAC has illustrated that we can end up in court over a contract with missing/vague/unclear definitions. Because of this, it's important that there be no uncertainty over the intent of each section of the agreement and the definitions of terms used in each part.
Can you clarify this statement? Can you pin down the points that are bothering you for us?
Did you not click the spoiler button? There's a 44-line 7.7k character wall of text in there.
What does that mean? Where exactly is the conflict with our license agreement?
As mentioned above, phrasing in section 2.4 isn't too clear on how to transfer/absolve rights for work done through/in the SDK. In its current form, I don't see a way where I can transfer IP I've developed under the EULA from myself to another without still being liable for profit made off said IP. A corporate entity doesn't have a means of accepting the agreement unless a separate/distinct "you" (who hasn't already accepted the agreement) does so upon behalf of said corporate entity.

Re: My personal concerns regarding the new EULA

#5
I hope its ok to hook into this thread with a newbie license question:
I wrote to support and got a ticket acknowledge email 17 days ago but no followup yet (#7362) - maybe someone in the forum knows the answer:
What license applies to a mod/single level made with cryengine 2 to be launched in the original Crysis game? Non profit but possibly receiving donations to work on it full-time further down the road?
thank you for any clarification or helpful pointers.

Re: My personal concerns regarding the new EULA

#6
Well, in the past the EULA pretty much just said if you don't follow this agreement then you can't use Cryengine any longer. Now, it's saying you agree that we can charge you an as of yet to be determined amount of money in certain circumstances and through vague/missing definitions be interpreted arbitrarily at any point in time (in addition to you no longer being able to use Cryengine). Where before there was only a grant of license for use, protocols are trying to be dictated here and that opens up whole new dimensions in the realm of breach of contract. I know you guys can't say anything about ongoing litigation, but the Crytek vs CIG FAC has illustrated that we can end up in court over a contract with missing/vague/unclear definitions. Because of this, it's important that there be no uncertainty over the intent of each section of the agreement and the definitions of terms used in each part.
Thanks for the clarification, I forwarded this to our legal department and think your feedback is clearer now.
Did you not click the spoiler button? There's a 44-line 7.7k character wall of text in there.
I did click that Spoiler button and because it's a 44-line 7.7k character wall of text that mixes general feedback and punctuation/spelling call-outs, I wasn't all clear on if you were referencing these points or others as well in your statement. Thanks for the friendly clarification. Feedback forwarded.
As mentioned above, phrasing in section 2.4 isn't too clear on how to transfer/absolve rights for work done through/in the SDK. In its current form, I don't see a way where I can transfer IP I've developed under the EULA from myself to another without still being liable for profit made off said IP. A corporate entity doesn't have a means of accepting the agreement unless a separate/distinct "you" (who hasn't already accepted the agreement) does so upon behalf of said corporate entity.
I am not sure I get that right. Can you create a use case to explain your concern a little better? What does that have to do with the SDK specifically and who would you sell/transfer/absolve the rights to?

If a person or company keeps using CRYENGINE to develop and leverage your property, somebody needs to legally sign the license agreement in their name or the name of the team/studio. If you sell your IP, than that's a different story because another game could be created without using CRYENGINE. Is that what you're referencing?

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roadie
I wrote to support and got a ticket acknowledge email 17 days ago but no followup yet (#7362) - maybe someone in the forum knows the answer:[/quote]

I contacted our support team to look into the issue. :) Your ticket should be updated, shortly.
Nic
CRYENGINE Community Developer

I'm manning the CRYENGINE stations on Facebook & Twitter as well, so come and say hi!
My personal Twittering may contain nuts.

Get to know me.

Re: My personal concerns regarding the new EULA

#7
I contacted our support team to look into the issue. :) Your ticket should be updated, shortly.
thank you for that - no news so far but maybe this is because the sandbox 2 is so outdated? I cannot find a clear license statement for the Sandbox Editor 2 in my Installation or on the net.
All I have here is a Crysis License that came with the game and there is one that mentions the Mod SDK but not in clear language like "if you create a custom level or more that can be loaded by anyone owning a copy of Crysis 1, here is what you need to know about the legal background of sharing these levels/mods, receiving donations for them or crowdsourcing the development of these levels/mods, created with the Sandbox Editor that was provided with the Crysis Game to you for free."

The Cryengine License of now seems to allow the creation of 'non-commercial' games/levels etc. but has a policy that donations that are used to develop the levels/games/mods are counted as revenue liable for royalties - If I understand correctly. I have searched a bit for the legal framework of the old ModSDK - be it Crysis or Crysis Wars and I would still like some clarification of this - just in case :) and it may well be that I just don't get it or missed a document that explains it clearly. Thank you for any pointers.

example: how would Crytek handle a modder that has a Patreon page for her projects receiving income via that ?

Re: My personal concerns regarding the new EULA

#8
Hey guys,

we are currently evaluating all the community feedback we got over time and are going to incorporate some of the feedback in our next EULA update.

Some smaller things have already been addressed but as the final version isn't approved yet, I can't talk about the details, yet.

A word on donations and crowdfunding from my side, just to open up the thought process here: It is difficult to apply royalty on crowdfunding under conditions that are fair for both the developer and us, the provider of the tool used. As you know one can never anticipate how crowdfunding goes; it might be the next big thing and immensely successfull or many cf campaigns just land flat on the face so that 5% royalties could make or break the success of the campaign; of course Kickstarter, IndieGoGo and Patreon demand fees for their services as well, so this all keeps adding up and threatens smaller indies who heavily rely on the option of crowdfunding to realize their vision.

Then again very successful projects can make millions of Dollars and in such a case, we want to cover our bases and make sure that a healthy project is also reasonably monetized and gives back to us when a good portion of their success is based on the engine they use. Considering all this and trying our best to make this fair and reasonable for all sides takes time and that's the reason why we are still considering feedback. Crowdfunding wasn't the powerful tool it is now some five years ago and is still rapidly evolving; but we will evolve our business model alongside it as we exist in the same ecosystem, but it takes time.

Thanks for continuing to provide good feedback and bearing with us in the meantime while we're working on the update. :)

Cheers,
Nic
CRYENGINE Community Developer

I'm manning the CRYENGINE stations on Facebook & Twitter as well, so come and say hi!
My personal Twittering may contain nuts.

Get to know me.

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